Interview with Martin Yant - First 3 Letters
Speaker 1 (00:15):
(singing)
Marie Mayhew (00:18):
Hi there. Thanks for listening to the Whatever Remains Podcast. I'm your host, Marie Mayhew. Thank you for tuning in to our episode recap on Circleville, with Martin Yant.
Marie Mayhew (00:51):
The subject of the Circleville Letters has been covered a lot, starting in the 1980s in local Ohio papers and TV, all the way to podcasts like this one. Arguably the most famous media coverage on Circleville would have to be its appearance on a TV show called Unsolved Mysteries. Now, if you don't know what Unsolved Mysteries is, first thing, shame on you. You need to turn off this podcast, go onto Amazon, and watch all of them. We'll wait here for you.
Marie Mayhew (01:20):
Unsolved Mysteries was, and really is, the gold standard of American true crime television. Robert Stack, in his trench coat, surrounded by swirling mist, looking out at the American viewing public and saying, "Join me. Perhaps you may be able to help solve a mystery." I mean, who's not going to say, "Yes, Robert Stack. Yes, I will join you. I will help solve that mystery."
Marie Mayhew (01:50):
The Circleville Letters were covered twice on the program, and we'll get into that more in later episodes. But the main important point is, that this story about this town wouldn't be famous, or even really well known, if it wasn't for the work of one man, private investigator Martin Yant. Martin Yant was originally a journalist and an editor, in Ohio. In 1991, he left working for news organizations and devoted himself to independent journalism, and to the investigations of possible wrongful convictions.
Marie Mayhew (02:20):
Yant's work aided in the exhortation of 32 wrongfully convicted individuals, two of whom were sentenced to the death penalty. He worked on a case that led to the largest civil rights settlement in Ohio history. In 1996, while representing himself, Yant won a public records case against the Ohio Bureau of Workers Compensation, in the Ohio Supreme Court.
Marie Mayhew (02:44):
Yant himself is a published author, writing books on his experiences and the subject of wrongful conviction. His book, Presumed Guilty: When Innocent People Are Wrongly Convicted, has been listed by the Washington Post as one of the most important books published on the miscarriage of justice. He's been on numerous TV and talk radio shows, and has had his investigations featured on NBC, the CBS evening news, 48 Hours, A&E's American Justice, The Discovery Channel, and Unsolved Mysteries.
Marie Mayhew (03:17):
Martin was hired to look into the conviction of Paul Freshour, the man that was ultimately sent to jail for attempted murder, and is largely believe by the Circleville police and the sheriff's office, to be the letter writer. All of which we will dig into later. Martin's research into this case did a couple of things. One, it raised questions about Freshour's conviction, and two, it introduced the story to a national audience, as seen with the coverage on Unsolved Mysteries.
Marie Mayhew (03:46):
I met Martin while researching Circleville, and he's agreed to join me in recapping what we've uncovered on the episodes. He's our first discussion on episode one, the first three letters. Enjoy.
Marie Mayhew (04:06):
So what did you think, in looking at the f- the first letter, again, March 2nd, 1977, sent to Westfall High School, "Attention, Massie", in quotes?
Martin Yant (04:25):
The transformation of these letters over the first few is very interesting. They start to become more like the traditional block print-
Marie Mayhew (04:34):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martin Yant (04:35):
... as you go along. But if- initially they don't mention Mary Gillispie, which is odd.
Marie Mayhew (04:45):
Yeah.
Martin Yant (04:45):
Because as time went on, they became more and more obsessed, um, with Mary Gillispie. What made that kind of change? First, the writer was concerned about all the bus drivers.
Marie Mayhew (05:04):
Yeah, and it even says, "According to my girlfriend." So they're saying... I mean, in the original letter sent to Gordon Massie, they're saying that whoever is writing these letters, it's- it's their- it's his girlfriend, or their girlfriend that's- that is- that he's trying to protect. It's not about a single... it's about the girlfriend, yes, but it's about like the- his sexual harassment of this group of women has to stop. And that's what he... the- or the writer seems the most adamant about.
Marie Mayhew (05:43):
If I'm trying to understand what the author is asking for here in these letters, it's basically that Gordon Massie looses his job, or is exposes. There would have been a clause in his contract about... a morality clause, right? So if- if this was in fact proven, or alleged and proven going forward, he would have been fired by the school board.
Marie Mayhew (06:10):
But what I just keep coming back to is, again, the- the- the timing of these three letters, which is the first is sent on the 2nd of March. The following two, which go to the board of education, and to another- another local, um, supervisor, are sent just two days afterwards. Not even really two days, because it posted on the 4th. If I'm Gordon Massie, and I receive this letter... because it was addressed to him, and he would have, hypothetically, been the person to open it. There is no recourse in between me getting it (laughs) and it being sent to my, you know, m-my supervisor. So I think that that's, again, to me, is like very, very telling, in that they had an agenda.
Martin Yant (07:12):
The objective seems to be to get people upset with Gordon Massie.
Marie Mayhew (07:19):
Yes.
Martin Yant (07:21):
So it- it's- it strikes me, particularly in the first three letters, bang, Gordon Massie, you're a bad guy and you're going to be exposed.
Marie Mayhew (07:33):
Um, and we'll post- we'll post the PDFs on our website, so our listeners can also view the actual letter and the envelopes themselves, but one of the things that I think is really fascinating is the change in, um, between these letters on the- how the person was writing, or ch-choosing to write. Because-
Martin Yant (07:54):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Marie Mayhew (07:55):
... it seemed like, again, they went from... they're trying to establish what style they want to use, you know, to disguise their natural handwriting as they go. But the one to the school board, I thought was very interesting, because it was very, all caps, very, very legible. Very, like, uh, again, like it's actually really nice looking font (laugh). I was looking at it, and I was like, "Wow, this- if it wasn't such a menacing letter, it's- it's- it's very well written."
Marie Mayhew (08:22):
Um, so I thought that it was sort of a, you know, again, they're- they're like establishing their voice, and their style and their communication in this. But they're also, you know, kind of changing their story a little bit, in that, you know, th- at first, the one to him is- is very much like, "Hey, you need to- you need to, you know, lay off, um, harassing these women. It's not right, it's not well- it's not good for the school, it's not good for the families." You know, and sort of this- this ethical and moral argument to, sort of even later on, the women of... some women- some women don't mind it (laugh). Which I thought was, again, you know, this is-
Martin Yant (09:03):
Odd.
Marie Mayhew (09:03):
(laughs) Yeah, this is like, he's sort of the- the writer loses sort of the whistle blower status with that, in that it's like, you know, but the mor- the- the morally bankrupt women don't care about it, but there are a few women who really, who don't appreciate this happening. Um, which again, is- is sort of skewed way of looking at, uh, sexual harassment, but is also kind of showing that it's, underneath the veneered is not as altruistic as it's trying to be, is how I looked at it.
Marie Mayhew (09:34):
Um, what would be the reason that someone would want to bring this much attention to Gordon Massie? And I think that that's what I'm trying to dig into, or we- we're trying to dig into next.
Martin Yant (09:49):
Yeah, I think the target, from the very first letter, is more Gordon Massie than Mary Gillispie.
Marie Mayhew (10:00):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martin Yant (10:02):
And then later, it kind of switches, uh, to make Mary Massie, uh, a target as well as... I mean, Mary Gillispie, as much as- as Gordon Massie. And... but then, of course, it ends up with supposed, uh, attempted murder.
Marie Mayhew (10:33):
Yes. Yes.
Martin Yant (10:35):
And there's something going on here, that I think it's kind of hard to fathom, but I really am thinking that I should try to talk to some people.
Marie Mayhew (10:51):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You know, and without, you know, having to examine some more of, you know, trying to gather some more facts about what was happening in Circleville during this time, what was happening in the school district during this time, which is- which is a little difficult, because it is now the '70s. Which doesn't seem that- that terribly long to- to you or I, but I'm sure (laughs) to- to some people, it's- it's already ancient history that they're reading about.
Martin Yant (11:21):
Ancient history, yeah.
Marie Mayhew (11:21):
(laughs) That they're reading about... I was going to say in textbooks, but nobody even really reads textbooks anymore.
Martin Yant (11:27):
How old are you?
Marie Mayhew (11:27):
Oh my God, Martin, I am- I am a crone. I'm a crone. Um, I'm telling you, I'm- I'm old enough- I'm old enough to- to know that the- that the '70s... to remember the '70s, but to know that they, you know, that some- a good time- a good amount of time has passed in between now and then (laughs). Um, but I would say that it-it's- it would be... it's hard to find out what's happening because of that.
Marie Mayhew (11:54):
But, um, and I think I sent you, and I'll- I'll tell the listeners, the email... so, again, trying to find records from this time period is- is difficult, because everything is... nothing is really digital, and everything's on Microfiche. And trying to find... I made a request recently, and the person got back to me and said, "We- we- we want to be able to provide that for you. It's going to take some time, because the Microfiche is in someone's, um, safety deposit box somewhere..."
Martin Yant (12:26):
(laughs) Yeah.
Marie Mayhew (12:26):
(laughs) "So we have to..."
Martin Yant (12:29):
But I'm impressed how people are going out of their way to try to help people.
Marie Mayhew (12:36):
I am too. I think- I think it speaks-
Martin Yant (12:39):
See, when I did this...
Marie Mayhew (12:40):
(laughs)
Martin Yant (12:41):
... the wounds for all were still pretty fresh.
Marie Mayhew (12:44):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martin Yant (12:45):
And Paul Freshour was still in prison, uh, he was still being accused of writing these threatening letters. And then Paul had been making accusations against the sheriffs and others. So emotions were still pretty raw in 1992.
Marie Mayhew (13:09):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martin Yant (13:10):
And now, it's kind of ancient history.
Marie Mayhew (13:15):
Yes. As ancient as 19- as ancient as the '70s, yes. But agreed. Agreed.
Martin Yant (13:19):
Now, one thing... now, another person I could talk to, he's a brilliant forensic scientist, and I quite often get him involved in cases, he's been involved in several wrongful conviction cases, um... but he's also a profiler. In general, I'm not a big fan of profilers who think they can tell you-
Marie Mayhew (13:43):
Right.
Martin Yant (13:44):
... what kind of person to look for-
Marie Mayhew (13:45):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martin Yant (13:46):
... who would match this- the killer, because what they don't tell you is they're quite often way off the mark, and they bury those cases, and only tell you the ones where they- they were close.
Marie Mayhew (13:59):
(laughs) Yeah.
Martin Yant (14:00):
But- but he's a contrarian type of profiler, uh, who looks at things differently.
Marie Mayhew (14:10):
Oh, well you had me at contrarian, so. (laughs)
Martin Yant (14:14):
And I think I could run it by him, and just... I mean, it's amazing. He does what he calls... I think he calls it a forensic autopsy-
Marie Mayhew (14:24):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martin Yant (14:24):
... and looks at all the crime scene stuff, everything else.
Marie Mayhew (14:28):
Hmm.
Martin Yant (14:28):
And then he'll develop an idea of who the killer is.
Marie Mayhew (14:32):
Hmm.
Martin Yant (14:33):
W-what kind of person is it. But I have no doubt he's a genius, because his mind, he's just always... he- he's almost Sherlockian.
Marie Mayhew (14:43):
(laughs)
Martin Yant (14:44):
And, you know, and he'll go into a crime scene, and one good example was that- of that is the, um, West Memphis Three-
Marie Mayhew (14:54):
Oh my goodness, yes.
Martin Yant (14:55):
... case.
Marie Mayhew (14:55):
Yes.
Martin Yant (14:57):
Well, he- he helped turn that around, because he, just looking at the autopsy photos, and what they were identifying as insight- insect bites, he said, "Those aren't insect bites. Those are bite marks."
Marie Mayhew (15:12):
Oh my God.
Martin Yant (15:14):
So he's very perceptive like that. Um...
Marie Mayhew (15:19):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martin Yant (15:19):
But he might be able to, if nothing else, give some enlightening or entertaining insights on what kind of person this might be.
Marie Mayhew (15:31):
I- e- I think that that would be great. I mean... I don't know.
Martin Yant (15:35):
And then I think what I've got to do is... a couple of things.
Marie Mayhew (15:41):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martin Yant (15:42):
And then, I thought I would try to track down and see if Gordon Massie's son-
Marie Mayhew (15:47):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). William.
Martin Yant (15:49):
... is still alive, because many people-
Marie Mayhew (15:52):
He is.
Martin Yant (15:52):
... have a theory that he did it.
Marie Mayhew (15:54):
I think he is. He's still in Circleville. I think it would be interesting to know what he thought of things. What- what he thought was happening during this time period, in 1977.
Martin Yant (16:12):
Yeah, and his father's long gone.
Marie Mayhew (16:14):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martin Yant (16:16):
This is a real mystery, and it may plague him too.
Marie Mayhew (16:20):
I think- I think it's interesting, because one of the questions that I have is, did- did the letter writer send things to his home, to Gordon Massie's home? Or to Gordon Massie's wife, Clara?
Martin Yant (16:36):
Yeah.
Marie Mayhew (16:36):
We don't know, because none of those letters have ever been... they're not in any of the police records that I have found. They're- they're not referenced. But at the start of this, I didn't know that he had written, or the writer had written directly to Gordon Massie, either. So I'm curious to... I would be curious to know what, um, you know, if anything the Massie family would want to disclose about this, because I do think it's...
Marie Mayhew (17:09):
You know, again, he's being accused of something in these letters. You know, trial by- trial by rumor, in some ways, because there is- there are- there is no proof of any of this. There is no proof that he was anything but a, you know, a very good superintendent. He served as a superintendent in Westfall, and as- and a principal, and, you know, in that community for decades.
Marie Mayhew (17:38):
So it's- it's one of those things where it's like we've also made assumptions on someone's character with only knowing a portion of the truth, or what we think is the truth. And that's what I was sort of curious to find out next, is like, here's what I think I know about Gordon Massie, but what really happened with that? What was- what was the-
Martin Yant (18:00):
Yeah.
Marie Mayhew (18:01):
... what was the story with- with what was happening?
Martin Yant (18:03):
Well, then the other person-
Marie Mayhew (18:05):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martin Yant (18:05):
... to be interviewed is Mary Gillispie.
Marie Mayhew (18:09):
Yeah. I can't find her (laughs). In any of my searches, I cannot... I can't find [inaudible 00:18:17].
Martin Yant (18:16):
I think I still have her. I'm pretty such I can locate her.
Marie Mayhew (18:23):
Well, I- I- yes. You- you're a professional. (laughs) I am a- I would- I would- I- I think that would be great.
Martin Yant (18:31):
But I'm really beginning to think this could make a fascinating book.
Marie Mayhew (18:36):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that this... I think that the more- the more we find out, the more we can actually trace back a lot of these- a lot of these letters, and kind of dig into what was going on. Find out what was going on in the town, and start to piece more of a picture together of-
Martin Yant (19:00):
Yeah.
Marie Mayhew (19:00):
... this is what's happening. This is what happened in the '70s, and then this is what happened in the '80s, as t-there was a resurgence.
Martin Yant (19:07):
Yeah.
Marie Mayhew (19:07):
That- that-
Martin Yant (19:08):
Well, um... are you willing to co-write it with me?
Marie Mayhew (19:15):
(laughs) Am I going on the record of saying I would? Of course, I would. Of course. Of course. I mean, to me-
Martin Yant (19:19):
Maybe I can launch your literary career.
Marie Mayhew (19:23):
(laughs) Um, I would- I love- I would love to do something like that. I feel like- I feel like there are... one of my friends, when, um, uh, Forrest Burgess, when I told him I was doing... he- he is the co-host of Ast-Astonishing Legends Podcast. Um, when I told him I was-
Martin Yant (19:40):
What is it, legends?
Marie Mayhew (19:41):
Astonishing Legends. So he is... they- they cover all sorts of... him and his good friend, uh, Scott Philbrook, um, have a- have a wonderful podcast, that covers the gamut of all sorts of strange history, strange science. Um, and they've done really- they've done really wonderful work. And when I told him I was doing- I was doing the, uh, the Circleville Letters, he was like, "Uh, isn't that kind of done? Like haven't you- haven't you- everybody's covered that. Everyone knows everything that there is to know about that. That's like an episode and a half."
Martin Yant (20:13):
No. No, they don't.
Marie Mayhew (20:14):
And I was like, "Nah." (laughs)
Martin Yant (20:16):
It's... most [crosstalk 00:20:16]
Marie Mayhew (20:16):
Clearly. Yeah.
Martin Yant (20:18):
They took my stories-
Marie Mayhew (20:23):
Uh-huh.
Martin Yant (20:23):
... and the Unsolved Mysteries, and then they piled on all kinds of speculation.
Marie Mayhew (20:28):
And I think- I think that that... that was my point back to him, is I was like, "I don't know, man". The more, you know, the idea of- of this contagion kind of taking over this town, and then nobody really knowing who it was, or how, or what happened or why it happened, was what fascinated me to begin with. But then, the more you start to dig into the people, and, you know, what was- what was happening in their lives, and- and how it was effecting them, I think it's... I think there's a lot too it. I would love to be able to go deeper into it.
Marie Mayhew (21:07):
So this wraps up our first interview with private investigator, Martin Yant, who we thank for giving us his guidance and insight on this mystery. We'll be speaking with hi again in the coming weeks about what we unearth next in Circleville. Be sure to check out his great books, Rotten To The Core, and Presumed Guilty: When Innocent People Are Wrongly Convicted, amongst others. So until our next episode, remember, what goes around comes around. And thank you for listening.
Marie Mayhew (21:36):
What to know what Whatever Remains is getting up to next? Follow us on Twitter @WhateverRemains, or online at whateverremainspodcast.com. Be sure to subscribe to the show, and give us a five star review on iTunes, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Copyright, Five Orange Pips Production. All rights reserved.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
(singing)